David Viñas and weapons of criticism
My best tribute to one of the largest Argentine intellectuals of the twentieth century, a man of character but without rancor side, as I had to check, in an interview - and interesting introduction - which Néstor Kohan made him almost eight years.
ever
Marx in a famous formulation, asked to combine the weapons of criticism with the criticism of arms. In the culture of Argentina David Viñas exercised for decades both forms of criticism. Maintain that attitude, not bow to the fashions of the moment, it is not easy. Basically in our culture, always so prone to be captivated by "the ultimate" master class in Paris and quickly settle the current political wave.
As someone who feels out of place as a spoiler - what is an intellectual critic but a killjoy? - Viñas has never been afraid to challenge the consensus surface last minute. This interview is no exception to the rule.
worth recalling, for example, that during the early years of the so-called transition to democracy "when many intellectuals vernacular returning from exile in Mexico renouncing their Marxist fervor of the '60s and '70s and embraced, enthusiastic, sorry, and converts, European social grants and subsidies from wealthy U.S. foundations, David Viñas rejected a Guggenheim fellowship that gave him more twenty thousand dollars. When asked the reasons for the "inexplicable" rejection, given that not even owned his home and had to pay rent, Viñas barely whispered the name of their children who disappeared during the dictatorship (Mary Adelaide and Lorenzo Ismael) and the writer Haroldo Conti ...
is known. In the field of criticism literature, the emergence of Argentina and Literature political reality (1964, reprinted as amended and extended on several occasions) revolutionized the field at the same time challenging academic formalism and the depoliticization of the official fees. That work began today classic written in 1953, Contour times (the legendary magazine where David Viñas Rozitchner participated with Leon, and Ramon Mayor Ismael Viñas, among others). His daring hypothesis branded on the national critics. What characterized his originality was the discovery of political impregnation stains the staging of the writing. A reading of our literature understood as a single text run, where they speak the ruling classes and intellectuals. Society and political conflict in a condensed time in the city, understood in turn as open and disputed text.
precursor
That book went on in a series of investigations into our literature, in the work of vineyards, accompanied his several novels, plays and history textbooks. Among the critical and historical texts worth mentioning Laferrère and the crisis of the liberal city , De Sarmiento a Cortázar , From the anarchists Montoneros, Fascism in America America, Latin America Anarchists, God Of Sarmiento (Argentine travelers USA) and Menemato and other suburbs. Among the novels fell on his face, ruthless Years, A god everyday , land owners , Dar face, horsemen, concrete things, pack, The tragic week, Melee, and Syllabus Claudia talks, among others. Among the plays: maneuvers, Lisandro, Tupac-Amaru and Dorrego.
The interview took as its starting point the reissue of Indian army and border (Buenos Aires, Santiago Arcos, 2003; first edition of Mexico, Siglo XXI, 1982), extending the trial began in stabbing behind Outline and the controversial play of 1964.
always consistent with its desire to embarrass, to kick the board and complacency accommodative half-submerged since 1976 to date-in suspects dietary sweeteners, in this interview Viñas refers by name to several Argentine intellectuals. When we were parting, I asked if he kept those names in editing or removed. "Partner" he warned, "the controversy has to be ad hominem . You can not argue in the abstract and how pretending distracted. " That was surely the best definition of its critical work.
The dialogue took place in the library bar Losada de la calle Corrientes, on a cold Friday night in June 2003.
Exile and dictatorship
Néstor Kohan: How research was conceived of Indian army and border ?
David Vines: I was in Spain and there came the news of the official celebration of Videla in Argentina of the "Campaign to the desert." A scandal! That coincided with my stay in Berlin for four or five months, was to give some classes, and there I could see this huge library donated by Ernesto Quesada which is now in the Latin American Library in Berlin.
NK: Your book was an attempt to respond to dictatorship?
DV: from the start is raised controversy. It appeared clear that in 1879 the two figures overlap: the civil and military embodied in General Roca, head of the annihilation of 20,000 people or so.
NK: And in 1979, a century later?
DV: Well, then the missing were 30,000 ... The information we received in exile was that the military was killing people "for free." I believe that time will assign greater importance-that was what was seen, and in exile ... long story - the military. Not sufficiently articulated and explicitly the underlying economic project and decisive. If I have to be self-critical, I think this book is the articulation of class bias in terms of a more civilian, where the shaft is in the criticism of the military.
NK: What public had in mind when he wrote?
DV: Good question. This was written in Spain, the public was a European (although it was later published also in Mexico). They, in Spain, not well understood politics in Argentina. How was the coup of 1976 had given to Isabel Peron ...? They had in mind the model of Chile: a socialist government overthrown by the military. To explain the situation in Argentina in 1976 took years to explain ... We said: "Neither Isabel Peron and Videla. How do I stay? With nothing I stay!
repressive Modernization
NK: In Indian army and border you hypothesize that in the nineteenth century history of Argentina is verified trajectory from "the nation romantic "that proposed the creation of Sarmiento and Alberdi 1837 of the" liberal state "in general Rock and the generation of '80. Also you suggest the idea of \u200b\u200ban authoritarian modernization. What role the army played there?
DV: Fully decisive. Already we see in Lucio V. Mansilla, who is the follower, the maximum of heterodoxy on the discourse of power. Specifically, in his book A trip to the Indians ranqueles , which is an implicit argument but was very explicit as he moves away from Rio Cuarto ... Mansour has a personal problem that runs throughout its internal dispute the discourse of power. But the discourse of power, with all the inflections that can be in chronological terms and diachronic, impregnations, etc, will increasingly emerging. Even he and others explicitly recognized as heirs to this point may be the Romantic Generation of '37. With contradictory moments from now. But it was refined in the passage of the romantic moment when the positivist, 1870 and especially 1880.
NK: "That passage is marked by a political project that in 1837 the State lacked in 1880 and has taken over the state?
DV: from now. In the case of Sarmiento is clear, that can be verified from what it might mean the Facundo and Campaign the Great Army, which cover the period 1845-1852 - to Conflicts and harmonies of the races in America and foreign Condition America. Even in strictly productive, critical quality, aggressive, dramatic tension is much stronger than anything the years in which Sarmiento is in opposition until it is installed and growing, one way or another, an address power.
NK: "The year 1880 marks the culmination of that project?
DV: I think so. Even, do not forget, there are elements Rock and godson of Sarmiento. This is going to rock rising on a strictly professional and military. Roca is a son of Sarmiento. Roca himself explicitly recognizes this. There is a line, up and down winding, yes, but whose heart, whose stone remains ever more explicitly the complementary component of an elite suburban English Argentina about the center.
NK: Is that process of emergence and consolidation of the '80 model in Argentina said the formation of an essentially authoritarian modernization?
DV: Yes, that was the process, even in the face the modernization process that involves the campaign into the wilderness with systematic removal of the Indians ...
NK: modernity that is found even in the repressive methods employed ...
then DV: course. Are the methods of "civilization" as defined against "barbarism." What was hitherto " civilization and barbarism " thereafter, in Argentina, is transformed into "civilization or barbarism." We must eliminate those others! ... to the extent that fall within my grid of rationality ... How could they be involved before? Mansfield sees it clearly. The exotic as a way to visualize the barbarism. "Exotic" for example, attached to women. In other situations, the woman is a slave exotic dancer, etc., Etc., Until the target can afford to buy a slave, but always surrounded by mystery and prestige of "oriental". In contrast, in our society, the work of Mansfield, for example, found something different: a vision of another articulated very differently to the seduction of the Orientalist discourse. In the white progress on the border of Argentina, on the Indians, there is no such exercise of seduction and "exotic." In the case of General Roca, the conclusion is simple: "We have to eliminate them."
Army and genocide
NK: In your book you state that the construction of a new order, socially, politically, culturally, presupposed in Argentina in 1880 a genocide. In the twentieth century, specifically in 1976, did something similar ...
DV: Yes, this could be one of the central theses. Two cases, depending on the needs of eliminating all those other rationalist overflowing power grids.
NK: always by the Argentine Army as the central protagonist ...
DV: precisely in Indian army and border referred to the "hidden God" ... Perhaps, making self-criticism, this book written in 1979 during the dictatorship of General Videla, is pervaded by a somewhat liberal perspective, to the extent that by the inks on the military dimension, which was the most visible. You may have an empty class. I should have asked at that time, when I wrote in 1979: "What appears next to the military?". What appears and is present in a document submitted phenomenal Sociedad Rural Argentina in 1879 calling for progress on the land. The first sign that document is Jose Martinez de Hoz, the same family as the minister of economy Videla. That'sa class continuity, almost paradigmatic.
NK: But Indian Army and border plants you the alliance between the military and provincial oligarchies ...
DV: Yes, an alliance in the case specifically political. A partnership that is played today with the governors of the provinces of Argentina with Juarez, the province of La Rioja, etc. In times of Rock and the desert campaign by the major operator of such partnerships that accompanied the genocide are in the province of Cordoba. It Celman Juárez. But here we have to recover, permanently, the theoretical line to be made since the 1850's until the 1880's until the end of the century: Victorian liberal thought, ie, classical liberalism.
NK: Could conclude, then, that in Argentina it was liberalism's opposition to an authoritarian thinking but substantial part of the project was authoritarian?
DV: All this was a bundle in which the dimension repressive unfolded implicitly. Campaign Against the Desert: who question this? From the margins of the same project and the same kind: the Catholics. It happened something similar to what happens now. Suddenly you can match against the liberal Catholic positions. So the opponents are Catholics, priests, missionaries denounce the process from a totally paternalistic. They are missionaries in a project that is part of the liberal project. It is the cross and the sword!
NK: has long been argued that in eighteenth century Europe, liberalism and repression were the alternative project or even dichotomous. Usually said that modernity came to displace and sweep across the project monarchical, authoritarian, despotic, repressive ... However, in Argentina appears imbued liberalism, and in the second half of the nineteenth century, a strong repressive and authoritarian impulse ...
DV: That passage is precisely what makes the path of romantic liberalism positivist liberalism. The most brilliant characters who carried out the policy of Charles II are among the viceroy, as Vertiz. The foundation of the Viceroyalty of Río de la Plata is a modernist. These people were imbued with the thought Physiocratic, the thought of Jovellanos ...
NK: But in the nineteenth century that it was impossible ...
DV: Yes, assuming that other characteristics and that liberalism was transformed into something quite repressive.
NK: Is there a parallel between the repressive model of the generation of 1880 in Argentina, where society is structured by the state and from top to bottom, with Bismarck and Prussian model which appears as an emerging society European then?
DV: displacements and replacements are permanent. There are temptations for successful models. In the late nineteenth century Prussian model that appeared to be successful in the same manner as in the second half of the twentieth century the successful emergence of the Israeli army ended up being seductive to the Argentine military. Until 1870 the role model was French, but that model gradually became replaced by Bismark Even in critical elements such as the country's unification and centralization.
NK: And the landowners, the Junkers, as social prevailing in Germany ...
DV: Exactly , here also the subject were the oligarchs who own the land. Historiographical criticism points to the tension of this shift in class Model field. Ernesto Quesada, whose library was bigger than the general himself Mitre, give these books to Prussia. Similarly, the general Ricchieri buy a huge quantity of rifles mauser Krupp home ...
NK: Does this culture of Argentina in the late nineteenth century, where modernization and liberalism were centrally repressive, it was virtually Prussian?
DV: No, there was what we do runs, matching, overlays, overprints in terms of success. Begin to come to Argentina Prussian officers. The path runs from Mansfield, always frenchified Uriburu General, to Colonel Falcon. The latter two were totally Germanophiles.
the desert campaign and the dictatorship of Videla
NK: Where would parallel with the genocide of 1976?
DV: obviously in the way in 1976 continues to run the military. In the case of General Roca and the generation of 1880, this is someone who comes from the military success, conquering the desert and conquered the city of Buenos Aires by a provincial. Look what he wrote the newspaper La Nación when given the choice between Rock and Weaver, "is a military rugged, provincial, etc.. " After warning that has a great insight. From 1880 to 1904 the military and civilian power are superimposed on one figure: that of a general.
NK: How do you see today the Argentine Army?
DV: somehow cornered. That is why President Kirchner may pass into retirement many generals. But to be seen how easy is it when Kirchner come to the interview with the "comrade" Bush ...
NK: Could draw a sequence between 1879, 1976 and 2003?
DV: I think so. I believe that this sequence is marked by the history of this institution and this social group now intends to go piecing but that, over time, his stone is representing in essence the same. Martinez de Hoz is the minister of economy Videla's dictatorship in 1976. And not coincidentally are the same surname Martinez de Hoz in the top of the list of the Rural Society letter sent to General Roca in 1879. There is a clear line of continuity. Obviously with some fluctuations, but end up weighing the oligarchy in Argentina is a seamless pipe.
The bourgeoisie Argentina
NK: Is there no difference between Argentina bourgeoisie of that time and today?
DV: Probably . The bourgeoisie of that time and even their repressive liberalism still had positive elements, for example at the anticlerical. Eduardo Wilde expels Matera. It was not easy to expel the apostolic nuncio. Break relations with the Vatican until the second presidency of General Roca. It's itinerary of the ruling class and its hegemonic discourse. Yes, with variations. There is a seamless pipe.
NK: "The bourgeoisie Argentina today is a national project as it was the bourgeoisie of that time?
DV: Current The bourgeoisie has only one project of survival. The current middle class is a thought that is a antipensamiento. Only bet for survival. Then, in 1880, the bourgeoisie had an elite that Argentina never been repeated. Think Eduardo Wilde and his correspondence with General Roca. It tutean because they had been schoolmates. To see the power circuit, the hegemony of a class, we had what finance minister. Remember that getting close to 1890 was Minister Carlos Pellegrini. At that time the project, which extends until 1930 - is within the British world map and there is a reciprocity interest: we produce what we do not consume and consume what they do not produce.
NK: At that time we have, then, a positivist liberalism, while repressive anticlerical. And today?
DV: will have to see where the applications of this neo-camporees we are witnessing, with all revenues from the case, how far to materialize. Fine print: how far to take shape as much as Lula has already co Landless in the street. A man has 50 million votes, with a background very different to that of Kirchner ... I wonder what is possible field of application is currently in Argentina? At the risk of certain orthodoxy that may be associated with simplicity, I do charge for this, one would associate the distance between the district of Puerto Madero and the neighborhood popular with larger lice that crocodiles ... the polarization is between carnival and favela. That urban level. At other levels it is also checked. So I wonder: how far can operate as a compromise proposal which now embodies the government of Mr. Kirchner? How far has a real chance? Even, so to speak sharply, consider just the finance ministers: Carlos Pellegrini to Domingo Cavallo or even Roberto Lavagna! With all that was Carlos Pellegrini ... when he realizes that it was no more the model of the moment and you have to open the game to a secret ballot and freedom ... that is, having positive and modernist elements. 1880 was a particularly privileged draft semicolony dependent ... as Lenin called, right? It may seem very thick. Is that it was. Where they agree, according to the possible exchange of local elite and the central elite. So today, compared with Kirchner, I think, is exactly what he says in the provinces. Now, what do you say when you get to Washington? And that progress was being made between the FTAA and MERCOSUR no antagonism ...
NK: You plant your doubts, uncertainties, concerns, versus so-called neo-Campora. This "spring Campora" does not express the continuity of a populist discourse and ideology?
DV: Populism, yes, but for populism seriously and politically effective you have to have economic support to a global environment like that was the first Peronism.
NK: "Today there are viable to return to that project? Or express the autonomy of a speech without a real basis?
DV: is very well set out. I would like the Italians say, parolacha ... and concreteness. I hope to see what happens with Colin Powell coming to see how he is history and the meeting between Kirchner's friend and "partner" Bush. Do you believe that Bush is not going to happen Fidel film in Argentina? There would have to see the inter-bourgeois tensions. I think that at this time in Argentina journalistic spokesmen revival Campora, "I think Miguel Bonasso or José Pablo Feinmann, are falsifying reality are covering. If Lula is to make concessions, with the country that has, with the number of votes and his own career at stake ... I just wonder what happens when Kirchner come to the interview with Bush.
NK: "Bush? Does the supposed owner of the world?
DV: same. You have to read what it says in the newspaper La Nación U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz ... the Iraq war was about oil! They own admission. But back to Kirchner, recently talked about the league of governors held in their provinces to General Roca. Well, what are the features of the province of Santa Cruz, hitherto governed by Kirchner just ...?
NK: In Indian army and border notes that José Hernández, author of Martin Fierro begins with the protest and then integrated. In the rest of your work is always critical plant the intellectual figure who gets on the horse to the left and down the right. Do you think that the Kirchner government will do the same movement?
DV: I think at this point there is some success, on the other hand passes through the culture of Argentina since 1880 and the model 900. Remember the old slogan "Argentina power" or when stated in 1909 "Argentina seventh in the world." What happened? It was the historical moment ... success through from the populism that the newspaper La Nación news coverage of tennis or "lions", the hockey players, even a writer as Ernesto Sabato or those who speak of "Argentina: Sister more "and other nonsense. Always under the hegemonic discourse. What we should ask is what was here in Argentina, the hegemonic discourse, from the joint state with rock solid until now? This discourse has permeated many different ideologies, including the left. José Ingenieros think ... is true that he was a positivist and up Secretary of Rock but it is also undeniable that in 1918 an act and make a speech in favor of the Russian Revolution marked a turning point. Engineers died in 1925. Had continued to ask ourselves how this shift? Where? The same is found in the social democratic left, clearly impregnation of the hegemonic discourse. Think of the historian Jose Luis Romero, for whom I had, incidentally, a great respect and affection. Went on to say that "America has no history" ... He began with the Greeks, Rome, medieval Europe and then went to Latin America and Argentina. What did you say that America has no history? What is the story for you, Mr. Romero? "Napoleon?
The left slope
NK: "The left failed to get rid of the hegemonic discourse?
D, V.: No, the left never got a real autonomy. We had a [Luis Emilio] Recabarren ...
NK: We had a [José Carlos] Mariátegui ...
DV: Neither Mariátegui ... There impregnation of the hegemonic discourse on the left. From Anibal Ponce to date, up to certain cultural buildings left Pharaonic architecture by its express the hegemony of power. From the left we have to propose something that is not something that we do, but from practice critical and alternative thinking. Can not we? Yes we can! Are we doomed? No! No way!
NK: Maybe left in Argentina laid on his back with two bags that did not belong: the progressive liberalism and national-populism ...
DV: from now. Although it sounds patronizing-I for 80 years, they have to the younger generation. It is a task to do: build un pensamiento alternativo desde la izquierda. Ajustar las cuentas con el liberalismo democrático y el nacionalismo populista es complicado, desde ya. En el andarivel político, ni te cuento…
N.K.: En tu libro De los Montoneros a los anarquistas de 1971 vos trazabas una secuencia que iba desde las masas de gauchos alzados del siglo XIX hasta los primeros obreros inmigrantes anarquistas. En Indios, ejército y frontera vuelve a emerger otra secuencia que nace con los pueblos originarios, inasimilables, a tal punto que fueron masacrados. ¿Hoy en día existe un sujeto social que ocupe ese lugar y prolongue esa secuencia histórica?
D.V.: The most visible are the picketers hard, ie, the protesters who refuse to assimilate. The government receives the so-called "piqueteros Dialogue", the protesters conciliators: D'Elia and Alderete. But the picketers unassimilable are hard. The latter are "out", do not fall within the grid of the rationality of power. Today there is a noticeable vacuum. The picketers did not come to cover the activities of the traditional trade union confederations.
NK: If the historical sequence is verified in the field of power, with the centrality of the army of genocide in our political culture must always accompany ruling classes, and is also found in the popular field, with indigenous peoples, with the gauchos elevations, the montoneras, anarchist immigrant workers, missing 1976 to the protesters today, what happens in the intellectual field?
DV: I think in the intellectual field is a task done. We have to do is still an outstanding debt, an Argentine intellectual history, periodization, of course. Always analyzing, critically, the intellectual figure of the horse goes left and down the right. Clarified that this is a quote from Arthur Jauretche was the best he had, despite all antizquierda and anticommunist ideology Jauretche. His model was the Peruvian APRA Haya de la Torre, right? I think the paradigm of this type of intellectual is Leopoldo Lugones, someone coming from the left, the magazine Mountain. Lugoniano speech of 1924, that passion for the fascist army, we find in 1930, 1943, 1955, 1966, 1976 ... in each of the coups. The other paradigm, the critic, as opposed to representing Lugones, is undoubtedly Rodolfo Walsh.
NK: addition to its revolutionary political activism Walsh What production as a writer, you rescue?
DV: Rodolfo Walsh left a formidable series of stories. For example "That woman" or the "Footnote" ...
NK: In "Footnote" Walsh stresses the emergence of the subject, is not it, a subject that is emerging from the shadows of endnotes walk to escape the constraints ...
DV: And there also appears in "Footnote", the praise of the poor devil. Exactly the opposite of Jorge Luis Borges, who always laughed the poor devil. For example, in "The Aleph," Borges Argentine laughs Daneri, that poor devil. And also Borges found, in contrast, the exaltation of the hero ...
additional
NK: hero and ancestor. Borges lived always remembering his illustrious ancestors ...
DV: course. On this side we also find the permanent counterpart ...
NK: detectives Walsh police stories are, well, poor devils, ordinary people and wildlife ...
DV: Of course, in Borges, however, find the Homeric invocation and exaltation.
NK: Why froze figure Rodolfo Walsh, separating the intellectual, the writer of a militant? Is not there an attempt to freeze it, revered, but freezing at the same time?
DV: Obviously the risk is canonization. We have to ask who and how canonize canonized? In this regard we must ask how it has operated Walsh's canonization as a journalist and from what angle did the operation.
NK: "Rodolfo Walsh left a legacy as a radical critic?
DV: I believe that there are radical critics. Some might be a Lion Rozitchner, of my generation, or Maria Pia Lopez, a younger generation and many others. But I think the legacy of radical criticism there is collective, not individual.
NK: Does a collective intellectual?
DV: Yes, speaking Gramsci, an intellectual group. The one left with a serious proposal on the cultural level. You have to read this story in a controversy, with the liberal tradition, of course, and also with the populist tradition. It is simply a work in progress. And read critically Peronism from Juan Domingo Peron and Eva Peron. Without saying that "Eva was a whore" nor "Rosa Luxemburg revived." Let's talk seriously.
NK: How do you join Indian army and border within this intellectual history is still to be done?
DV: As part of the culture left. And when I criticize the left, including myself first. Not only critical but also self, mate. For example, Indian army and border was written in 1979 during the military dictatorship. I think that lacks civility.
Method historicizing and opportunism
NK: In all your work for you thomas literary criticism centering on the city as a contested political space and in turn you put in the forefront of literature addressing the gestures of each writer's understanding them as a show of political life. And there do not hesitate to use a central category such as "imperialism", when it is assumed that is no longer fashionable ... So, if you compare your critical work of Edward Said's book Culture and Imperialism as or Orientalism can find many points of view ...
DV: Said's work seems very significant. These issues fall I especially nice, as it somehow. To put it polemically could say that it is unfortunate that in Argentina who had published the work of Edward Said, as also that of Fredric Jameson, has been a magazine like Viewpoint Beatriz Sarlo ... In Indian army and border , for example, there appears the subject of Eastern exoticism and the exoticism of the desert border and Indians in the eyes of whites. I read with great attention Orientalism, for example. I even remember who had scored to put a piece of heading, but then I was too circumstantial. I think the big controversy of Said is in the United States against all American formalism. What is more rescue historicizing of literature.
NK: A historicizing that, paradoxically, decentralized look predominantly at the Academia Argentina ...
DV: Totally against the grain of that look. From 1976 until today ... in our Academy continues to insist on the pure internal reading of the texts. That thing that comes from the American formalism and American neo-rhetoric. I think that Said is very interesting, but at times tends to overstate the presence of imperialism in the odd little novel nineteenth-century English. I have to show that presence requires more work on the dialectic of text and context ... We think the analysis of literature in times of Argentina's military dictatorship. Let us take criticism seriously and, for example, two emerging at that time analyzing the circumstantial there: Jorge Asis and Ricardo Piglia. What are you answering this? What is the scenario, the drama, the swing? For whom are you writing? What readers? What public? I think in the case of Piglia that responded to an audience that was expecting a work that took over, with subtlety and literary skill, the problem of dictatorship.
NK: " artificial respiration, for example, in the case of Piglia?
DV: Yes, exactly. A similar thing happens shortly after the appearance of "Open Theater" as a post-Falklands War. This situation is also a vector to take into account when analyzing the appearance of such books. The military and then were not burning books. Periodization should be accurate until you do that. I believe that this exercise-the burning of books-is exhausted Videla.
NK: Assisi For what are you responding?
DV: I think in his case, rather than a literary skill and subtlety, a cunning and opportunism. We should do a tour of his journey from left to right and from then on successive accommodations. The same accommodation can be found in books or even Felix Luna Pacho O'Donnell, with all the paraphernalia advertising and marketers of their recent and hurry-biography of Che Guevara. I mean, cunning, opportunism and accommodation. Do you understand?